Hitler/Obama

stefan wrote:That does not disprove what I wrote. The protestant reformation and constant wars in europe between the catholic and new lutherians was in many ways the birth of this new idea of spiritual enlightenment and freedom. That the common man should have the scriptures for himself and live in convictions free of chastisement was certainly a key role in the formation of the american ideal and thereafter the revolutions of constitutions in europe.

that depends on what you mean... if you mean democracy is a creation of a anglos protestant culture it does... i say because protestant culture created a space free from rules of the catholic church, it created a environment where peopel of all cultures and religions could come and practice unrestricted science and philosophy. a zone much like ancient Athens. but the ideas themselves had nothing to do with anglo protestant culture, it was just a zone like many before where a epoch of released shackles granted further advancement. the philosophers that these guys based their ideas of liberty on had never heard of Christians and probably not anglosaxons either.
and the wars did not create the enlightenment, it was a result of the followers of the old ideas being afraid of change and saw it as a bad thing, much liek the conservatives today fear obama

ear-sighted wrote:I agree, history is a window or lesson of the past and future...that can show the clips of the future...

but, Stefan, and Eth..., you are both discussing the PAST, which we cannot change.

For the future...except that thinds do change!

history is fundamental for understanding the present, and to figure out what need to be done in the future, things do change but most situations have (although the chess pieces where different) occurred before.

The chess pieces are ready for action.

sweet set, what are those in the front, fairy's?

I'm not really sure.. either.

ecthelion of the fountain wrote:

ear-sighted wrote:I agree, history is a window or lesson of the past and future...that can show the clips of the future...

but, Stefan, and Eth..., you are both discussing the PAST, which we cannot change.

For the future...except that thinds do change!

history is fundamental for understanding the present, and to figure out what need to be done in the future, things do change but most situations have (although the chess pieces where different) occurred before.

I agree completely. Discussing history is definitely interesting to debate but it is not always the answer to the present or future. Yes, I know, we learn from our mistakes and such...But it is hard to suggest that current situations are the same as those past. If you considered the Great Depression for example, there are similarities to what is happening today and possibly the cause of the financial crisis is very much the same, bank failures...But, this time it is global in a way we are not familiar with and we are not sure what to expect. I dunno, I guess I am very much a moderate and believe that the answer is usually in the middle, rather than one extreme over the other. Basically, chances are we have seen these scenarios before but not in the world as we know it today.

And that is an awesome chess board...Say, Ash, when do I get to beat you again?

yea.. I suck at chess, for the most part. BUt I still like playing it.

Something on the founding fathers (from Wikipedia):

Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Some of the 1787 delegates had no affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics: C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons. Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Episcopalian, eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists, the total number being 49. Some of the more prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical or vocal about their opposition to organized religion, such as Jefferson. Some of them often related their anti-organized church leanings in their speeches and correspondence, including George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson (who created the "Jefferson Bible"), and Benjamin Franklin.However, notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to that of deists, including Franklin, Jefferson, and Ethan Allen.

Although not a religion, Freemasonry was represented in Samuel Adams, John Blair, Benjamin Franklin, James Mchenry, George Washington, Abraham Baldwin, Gunning Bedford, William Blount, David Brearly, Daniel Carroll, Jonathan Dayton, Rufus King, John Langdon, George Read, Roger Sherman, James Madison, Robert Morris, William Paterson, and Charles Pinckney. (19 freemasons!? Am I the only one surprised?)

Yea, i've been to both Thomas Jefferson and George Wahington's houses.. it was great and very educational.

Jefferson's house.. Monticello or something.. I believe his estate was called.. is crazy... every room was decorated and painted for a different season and or time of day or night and he had strange metal objects.. I guess old inventions and gadgets lying about everywhere. It was like being in some old wizard's house, haha.

~ Now we just need the blood of thousands and our new nation shall be formed!

**I am a great admirer of Washington and Franklin, though. I can get rather obsessive once I start reading on a subject or person.

John Adams would be my favorite of the founders.

Some quotes of his that are so very relevant today...

Liberty cannot be preserved without a general knowledge among the people.

Power always thinks... that it is doing God's service when it is violating all his laws.


Property is surely a right of mankind as real as liberty.

Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.

There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a
free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to
endanger the public liberty.

Boosh! He slipped my mind, yes, a great man, but I've not read much on him...yet.